By Mark Hammerschmidt
This is a response to a question posed by Brian in my previous post. It got a little long for a comment so I’m putting it here.
Here’s the original question:
“I wonder if you could clarify something. Is it that you don’t believe in God, or that you don’t believe in a particular definition of God? As you know, I prefer the term “sacred” and find it manifest in the very core of our humanity. And, fortunately, this does not a theist make …”
Here’s my response:
My wife and I have been discussing this a lot lately as my ideas on God have been moving away somewhat from hers. It’s cool to have a spouse who doesn’t have to think exactly the same way. Sure, our foundation is the same but, as they say, the devil’s in the details.
I used to believe in a singular higher power. Not a Zeus-like person but an intelligent energy. More recently, though, my thoughts have moved toward a common energy as opposed to an intelligent energy.
I don’t think existence is necessarily by design. Isn’t it possible that it’s a natural process that is evolving through time? Does it require a magician manipulating strings and mirrors to make it possible? Is a divine creator really necessary in reality or is it just an easy way for humans to write cute stories about it? Human beings have been trying to put meaning to nature since the invention of language. Couldn’t it be that one finally finds enlightenment when he or she is able to put the stories and meaning to the side and exist peacefully within the universe as it is?
The reason that I’m struggling with it is because, like my friend Brian, I was raised Christian in a very religious household. Most of the members of my family are still very religious. So to throw out a word like “atheism” is scary because not only does it stir a negative reaction in my family toward me but also it also produces authentic feelings of sadness in my family (my mom especially) upon hearing me make such a statement. It’s difficult because I know it’s a genuine sadness that they feel (as wrong as I think they are) for the loss of my soul in their eternal family structure. And while I am at a point in my life where I have honestly never been truer to myself and never been happier, it causes great anxiety to know that the people I love are worried about me (even if they shouldn’t be).
So back to my belief in God. This is where I’ve been struggling with terms. I’m an atheist in that I don’t believe in a God being. I don’t think there is an entity out there with some form of rational brain who created the universe and watches over us and responds to our prayers. However, I do think there is something out there. I think there is a purpose to all of this, I just don’t know what the purpose is (which I suppose some would say makes me an “agnostic”). And I’m not sure that we will ever know the purpose, even after we die. And do we really need to know the purpose? Searching for purpose is a red herring. It’s a distraction from the real point of life. Like Brian says, the core of humanity is “sacred.” It manifests itself without prompting. We don’t need a religion to tell us that. We don’t need a father figure to put his hand on our shoulder in the afterlife to reassure us that we did a good job any more than we need to keep letting this God character know that we think He’s super through constant praise, recognition, and gold statues.
Philosophically, the concept of nirvana comes closest to my belief in the afterlife. However, once you put rules on paper and start dictating the pathway to achieve it, you basically give people with the predisposition to corruption easy-to-use tools to control others. We don’t need the instruction manual. We all know what to do in our heart of hearts. We might not know what we are working toward, but we all know that we get there through mutual decency.
So yes to both of Brian’s questions. While I do believe that we are working toward a final destination, I don’t believe in God and I don’t believe in a particular definition of God. I just don’t think our human brains are capable of understanding what is really out there and what this is really about. And they don’t need to be.
I do, on the other hand, believe in symmetry, and doesn’t that count for something?
I’m on my phone, so I’ll keep this brief.
You nailed it.
Now you just Newsroom embrace the fact that, like me and A. J. Jacobs, author of The Year of Living Biblically, you are reverently agnostic.
I have much to say about the family aspect of things, but my thumb is tired and my lunch break is almost over. I’ll check back in later …
I’m intrigued. Mostly I’m curious *why* you don’t believe in God.
I’m an engineer: analytical & logical. I read the Bible and haven’t found anything that could be disproved. Scientific method says you formulate a hypothesis and then test it. If the hypothesis fails you go back and try again, otherwise you can hold your hypothesis as true (at least until such time as it is disproved). Of course this requires a willingness to test the hypothesis (i.e. not blindly cling to a belief).
Although I’m content with my beliefs I’m always open to hearing what others who believe differently have to say, otherwise holding to my beliefs isn’t a valid scientific approach.
So, I get that you don’t believe in God as our Creator but I didn’t catch why….
First of all let me just say that I didn’t put these past few posts out there because I think my way is the only right way and everyone should think the same. I did it to add some insight into why some of my other opinions are so strong. Hopefully, we can see that there are many different ways to come to the same end.
As for why I don’t believe in a supreme creator… It just doesn’t jive with me. You say that you’ve read the bible and put it to the scientific process and nothing can be disproved. I’ve had the opposite experience. I would say that the whole thing has been scientifically disproven—from Adam and Eve to the flood to the virgin birth to the resurrection.
The last I checked, the scientific community was fairly certain that the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old and that life evolved from microscopic organisms in the oceans. I don’t recall seeing any serious scientific studies about how life started at the Garden of Eden. Or that it’s possible for a snake to talk Eve into eating a piece of fruit. I don’t know any scientists who would say that it was physically possible for Noah to gather two of every species of animal from around the globe and fit them into a space of 300 cubits by 80 cubits by 40 cubits. Last time I perused the scientific journals, I don’t recall reading about the mounds of evidence showing human virgins giving birth or women turning to salt or how science had finally figured out how to end world hunger by feeding 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish.
These things aren’t scientifically provable… which is why the Bible has to be taken with a good dose of faith. I’ve never felt strongly about these stories being true so I’ve never taken that leap of faith. So I guess the reason I don’t believe in God as creator is the polar opposite of why you do. I don’t find that there’s enough evidence to make that statement.
Hi Mark, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am relatively sheltered in that most of my friends and family are like-minded. I hope I didn’t sound disrespectful or inappropriate in sharing my thoughts & expressing my curiousity. You made me realize that I’m comfortable with taking some liberties in interpreting Genesis (i.e. “oh, yeah..that. Well, not literally 7 days”…if you know what I mean).
I definitely walk in faith, but hopefully not in a stupid way. Or in a narrow-minded way. I’m willing to step back and look at what I believe and why. I agree with you in that the faith element is probably the biggest differentiator. Also, something being improbable doesn’t mean impossible so I don’t take those theories as results any more than the claims from those who theorize that the Bible proves the presence of alien life forms.
I probably should have gone back and read your earlier posts before commenting. I love Brian and followed him here (he linked to this post via Twitter). I’ll come back when I have more time and read through some of your other posts so I get a better sense of where you’re coming from. I’m still intrigued. I hope you don’t mind.
I don’t mind you reading or asking questions at all. Any time.
It’s obvious that our ideas on science are different. If you are willing to wait for eternity for something to be disproven doesn’t that mean it’s impossible to disprove anything? It’s possible that Jesus walked on water. It doesn’t mean I’ll be attempting to take an evening stroll out in the Pacific any time soon. When you have some time, please let me know which miracles of the Bible you have found to be proved true.
Stop back anytime.
You raise a great point.
Scientific method is fundamentally a pursuit of truth (this isn’t “my idea of science” you can google this or look it up on wikipedia).
Faith is believing that which cannot be proven. If it could be proven, it wouldn’t require faith.
Most Biblical points of disagreement are not easily proven one way or another which is why you and I are left to agree to disagree. We’ll *hopefully* keep the peace between us without war or personal attacks. There are plenty of folks who resort to unpleasantness in the absence of “provable” truth. Scripture does not, in fact, lend itself to the scientific method; thus the need for faith.
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Hey Mark! I have something I could say to clarify Fran’s perspective, but my kids are going nuts right now so I’ll have to come back to this soon.
K, so I have something to explain, but it’s kinda’ long, so I’m not sure what the best means is to post it. maybe I’ll do it in not form to you.
Oops! *Note form
[...] another impulse, I clicked the link and read the post. It seems Brian’s friend Mark, in response to a comment/question from Brian (“Is it that you don’t believe in God, or [...]
To explain “why” I believe what I do would require an encyclopedia-length novel. That’s a lot of writing for something that doesn’t matter. What matters is that whatever the “why” is, I’m extremely happy in my life right now.
(I posted this as a note on facebook, but I wasn’t sure if you saw it or not, so I’m sending it to you this way too. Thanks for being patient with me.)
Thanks Mark for being willing to share your deep down inside beliefs and feelings. It takes a lot of courage to do so. I want to let you know, I know the perspective you’re coming from. I’ve taken psychology and sociology in high school and college (in Illinois). I’ve grown up learning these things all through my schooling. My husband is an anthropology minor. He’s had to study the books and philosophies that you base your beliefs on. So I understand where you’re coming from and I know that this perspective has some validity, but maybe there’s more than meets the eye..
One thing before I begin –I want to talk about perspective (which is something I know you understand), just so we’re on the same page. I’m going to use an example. There’s different ways to look at the sun. Most of us see the sun through our eyes. With this lens we see white light. Other people have access to even more special lenses to look through. There’s a whole array of them –Ultraviolet, Infrared, X ray, Coronagraph, H alpha, Magnetogram, etc. With these special lenses we can gather different information about the sun, things we can’t see just by looking at it. When we do so, we gather a more complete picture of the sun and its composition. So with this example.. I want to emphasize the importance of looking at life through different lenses. Some of them are special lenses which I’m going to talk about.
K, Now when it comes to science: Science is the PROCESS of finding information. Science itself does not have all the answers obviously, that’s why we use it to get more information. That information is then interpreted by scientists. Who are the scientists? Some would argue the ones who have a college degree and study subjects in depth. That’s fine. They tend to have more lenses to look through, thus knowing more info than the general public. I would also say that every individual has the license to use this process, thus making each thinking individual a scientist too. You with me so far?
In science there are certain tools. Our five senses are used in the analyzing process. There are also other tools, such as microscopes, telescopes and computers, etc. Those tools give us useful information. And that’s great! But I think what college-degree scientists many times forget is that there are other tools they may not use or know about. Some of us simpletons know about these other tools because we’re more willing to use them. I want to put emphasis on one of these tools specifically. But before I can do that, I need to give other info first.
All of us are made up of matter, right? Matter we can see, touch, smell, taste, and hear. We know it exists because it’s a part of us. What makes up this matter? Elemental structures. We know that a combination of different elements makes different things. We also know that elements are made up of something smaller –atoms. Atoms have protons, neutrons, electrons that act together in a certain way. Even smaller than those protons and neutrons? Some college-degree scientists say light. Now if this light is the basic structure of things, then what is light? Why does it exist, what’s its purpose? I would argue that light is a form of intelligence. Other scientists have actually gone so far as to show that light can obey and disobey –sometimes light, when put in certain situations, can choose to go one way or the other when blocked by an object for instance. Now, does this light always just choose for itself every time, or does it need guidance from something greater? Does light have the ability to choose whether or not it wants to become a world, or a star, or a tree, or a person? Possibly it does, but it needs a little help organizing itself, otherwise it just becomes something coincidentally..
K, so we know that human beings have the power to organize light in a certain way. We can take the elements and form them into things. That’s why we have all of these material things, right? Animals can do a little manipulation, but not much. There are certain things however, that humans cannot do. We can’t just form worlds or stars. Our power doesn’t go that far. So what if there is something greater than us? What if there is something or someone who has power to organize these greater things? It would fit in the pattern of things, would it not?
Now, if this person or thing exists, as it very possibly could, why is it/he organizing these things? What’s the purpose for all of this organizing? How did this being get power to do so?
I want to go back to those special scientific tools. There is a certain tool that is very useful, but since it is very special, it’s kind of locked away for the right kind of person to use. If just anyone could use this tool, it would get out of hand, come into someone’s hand who would want to use it to destroy rather than build. This very important tool uses light in a certain way to find information. This is the thing that you would consider that extra thing out there that you know exists, but you don’t know what it is. I’m going to put a name to it, just for easier writing and understanding. I call this tool the Spirit. In order to use this tool, you have to come into alliance with this very important all-powerful being who organizes things greater than us. We’re going to put a name to this being as well. His name is God. Since he is the one who commands the elements to do certain things and they obey, it is important for us to obey as well if we want to use that special tool, the spirit.
What’s the purpose of the Spirit and why still is God organizing things?
The Spirit gives us certain information that we can get from nowhere else, especially when it comes to matters of this greater being and life in general. It’s that special lens that we can view life through. The spirit works through putting light into us which then enlightens us about spiritual matters. However, like I said before, unless you do what it takes to get this tool, there’s no way to really use it, thus leaving ourselves to find things for ourselves, which basically leads us to very basic philosophies that we form based on our basic knowledge.
Those who have accessed this tool know of its existence. Is that fair to say? Those who haven’t may not know. One other thing about this tool though. It’s in a special glass box. So when truth is given, it can shine out of the box and we can see truth for what it is. However, we just can’t make use of it whenever we want to unless we have the key.
With this, I can say that through this tool, certain beings have been enlightened and given information about the greater picture. I will call these people prophets. When a prophet receives information, he shares it. We then have access to this information and can use this Spirit tool to know whether or not it’s true information. These prophets have revealed that God’s purpose is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life for man. What does that mean? God wants us to live forever. Not only that, but he also wants for us to live like him. Each person then has the choice to become like him or to become something else. Wow!!! WE can become like GOD? He’s the one who has this amazing organizing power to form worlds and suns and us! K, so what’s his purpose in forming us then? So that we can have joy and happiness. When our bodies are organized in a certain way, this basic elemental light then can do things it couldn’t do before when it was just light. You get my drift? Life and a continuation of life can be happiness if we live in a state that God lives because then we (human beings) can live together in harmony and have everything.
So how then do we become like God? Obviously if God has command of everything, he has to be perfect. If he used his power in a bad or controlling way, then we could be destroyed and our happiness goes out the window.
Now, we know there are certain absolute truths. There are mathematical laws, physical laws, laws of nature that have to be a certain way or they don’t work. The universe is ruled by these laws. If God is organizing matter, then he has to know and obey these laws in order to control it. There are also spiritual laws. Light within us acts in a certain way when we do certain things. If we obey these laws, we gain more light to our being. If we don’t, we lose a little. When we go against this light, we have to answer to the laws of nature. I’ll give an example. If we choose to smoke, the laws we answer to (or consequence) is that perhaps our bodies get cancer or become unhealthy in other ways
We’ll think of God as a King. He has all of these human being children (formed in his image). Thus, all his children are technically princes and princesses. He wants his children to become kings and queens as well. But how are they (or we) to do that? We have to go through a process of testing and our own choosing. We need to see if we’ll be true and faithful to him and the eternal laws of perfection. Now obviously he knew this test would be hard. It’s a test to see who the most noble are, because those are the ones who would receive greatest power. He knew that along our journey we would mess up. Why would we mess up? Because in the test, we’re trying to figure out the right way. . Now, obviously, since it’s impossible for us to be a perfect being, as God is, we will go against certain laws, whether it be our choosing or not. But God knew this. Thus he provided a means so that the laws could be answered without us killing over. He provided a being (the Savior) who would have the responsibility to take on all the ends of the law. If we are willing to use this tool, then we would be saved from the harsh consequences of all that we do. If we don’t make use of this tool, then we ourselves have to go through the consequences.
He gave us a bridge or a way back so to speak. That’s where the Savior fits in. He can fill in our gaps and lift us back to the right path. What about the rest of us who won’t quite get there? Because we are princes and princesses, he still wants to give us many good and wonderful things. If we choose not to use this intermediary being (the Savior) then after we suffer the consequences we too will have good things and have our Utopian world, so to speak. We just may not have as much power as we could have had if we chose otherwise.
It’s such a beautiful truth. How do I know all of this? Through the use of the tool, the Spirit. Can you see where the scientific community can’t make sense of this? They just don’t have the further light and knowledge yet. Those who have realized these things however have benefited from it. Science, or truth, goes very well with this way of seeing things.
I’m not quite sure how to respond to this because I don’t see “the Spirit” as a scientific tool. I see it as a tool to use in spite of science, if you so choose. The concept of the spirit is so personal and subjective, that you have to remove it from scientific endeavors. I mean, if we are going to take “spirit” into account, don’t we also need to free David Berkowitz from prison who went on a killing spree in the 70s after taking instructions from a “spirit” who communicated to him through his neighbor’s dog?
On that same note, if I were to read in a scientific journal that no physical evidence of elephants existing in the Americas can be found prior to the mid-1700s when Europeans brought them here as parts of travelling exhibitions, yet were to hear that a group of devout readers of scripture were piling up mounds of spiritual evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that they roamed freely, I’d probably stick with the PhDs.
I’m not trying to mock your beliefs at all. Sometimes it’s hard to get the tone down in text. What I’m saying is that those times when the Spirit comes into play are where you have to decide to rely on faith instead of science. This is where we have different lenses in our toolboxes and we struggle to see the world from similar perspectives.
I don’t have a problem with people having faith in God. I don’t have a problem with you using your Spirit lens as you go through your day. I choose not to use that particular lens because, in my experience, I haven’t seen much through it. But this is where it becomes sticky. This is where people like Nate and I find ourselves on the wrong end of judgment. If you were to scroll back through my blog, you will find some fairly strong opinions on religion. None of those posts are me trying to say I’m right and the rest of the world is wrong. Those posts are attempts by me to show the people I know (and okay, the ego in me likes to also show the people I don’t know) what I think and what my opinions are in an attempt to bridge the gap that divides religious and non-religious people. And, more importantly, I like to use religion as a rhetorical tool to stir things up, especially when it comes to politics. Not because I think I’m right and you’re wrong, but because I feel the urge to demonstrate the hypocrisy that often accompanies such ideas.
When it comes to politics, on the other hand, I tend to hold a little more tightly to the idea of me being right and others being wrong than I would when it comes to how you worship God. And the main reason I do this is because it seems to me that most religious people I know act in opposition to the teachings of their church when it comes to their political stances. This is where the line gets fuzzy and the intense arguments come into play and the swords get sharpened that might hurt people. Not because I want to hurt people but because I want to show people how their political beliefs are so completely out of line from their religious beliefs. Sometimes you can only make a point by dropping an anvil on someone’s head. And even then, the point is usually lost.
Much to the amazement of much of my family, I actually have a strong spiritual center. I also choose to line up my spiritual morals and values with everything that I do. These morals and values come into play often, such as what type of spouse I choose to be, how I parent, and how I vote. Nothing makes me more crazy than a self-professed Christian who has used Medicare when it suits him or her yet takes a political stance that takes food from the mouths of the needy and gives it in tax breaks to the richest people in the world. It also rubs me wrong when people say they want smaller government but don’t have a problem with big government intrusions, such as the prohibition of gay marriage.
This is the bigger lack of understanding that I hold. Not that one person believes in God and that the world is only 5,000 years old—but that a person who believes in God can justify a person’s worth based on a bank account.
Since I’m lacking the Spirit lens maybe you can help me out on why this is that I don’t understand. I know a lot of Mormons who have a hard time with liberals (in fact, outside of my own brothers and sisters, I don’t know another Mormon Democrat). And this is strange to me. It seems that the teachings of the Mormon church fall more closely in line with the Democratic way of thinking. In fact, the Mormon church is basically built with a foundation of socialism and is a shining example of how socialism can work in the modern world. So why are so many Mormons staunch Republicans and why do they have a problem with Democrats?
Because in my life, things don’t get nasty in discussions about religion. Things get nasty when I try to figure out how religious people have a problem with redistributing wealth from the top to the bottom but don’t have any qualms with funneling money from the bottom to the top. This is when I start to throw religion around in an argument. Not saying that you are a fool because you believe in God but to say that most Republican policies spit in the face of God. This is when people get defensive and the debate turns sour. Hopefully this won’t happen this time.
I’m not trying to change the topic here but rather am bringing the idea of the Spirit lens into the real world to test it out.
Staci, that’s just beautiful. Some of us scientist-types get it, but aren’t able to articulate it very well. Thank you for sharing.
Yesterday, I popped off a blog post on this topic. I will continue to work through my thoughts on this (using my blog as a forum) because the Spirit is compelling me to do so.
I do believe God wants all of us to know and love Him. We don’t *need* a father-figure, but we are blessed to have one. He doesn’t *need* our praise and worship, but I need to sing out my praise in response to all that I know and believe.
I don’t take the scientific evidence regarding evolution or the formation of the world as counter to scripture. Anything written about prehistoric times (i.e. predating man’s writing things down) was written by man based on his best understanding of what was told to him through the Spirit. Similarly I am trying to express what I believe based on my understanding. If I could prove it, no faith would be required and well, I guess everyone would believe the same thing. There’s no point in discussing it in the face of irrefutable proof, right?
Ironically, today’s scripture readings were all about this very topic.
I would have to say I have the same mindset of Mark. No, I’m not out in the streets dancing about there being an ultimate void of consciousness but I am a realist. I wish there was a god but it just doesn’t jive with my own belief in science. I afraid my friends that when we go all we’re good for is worm food. enjoy life now.
Staci, When I read your comment this came to mind. Take it with a grain of salt. I’m playing. kind of.
Nate, I am wondering if you caught the prayer at the end of the clip. Ironic, yes? I pray that God has mercy on all of our souls.
You can leave me out of that prayer. I don’t think that prayer should be used to ask for anything, even (especially) mercy. Prayer should be used as a means of thanking and showing appreciation. But that’s just me.
Since we’ve established that I take scripture as, well, Gospel…I suppose you won’t mind if I refer to the Bible for guidance. In Luke (& Matthew), Jesus taught us to pray:
2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:
“‘Father, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread.
4 Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”
Praise, yes. And supplication.
Also from Luke:
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
I pray for mercy because I dare not pray that I’m treated as I deserve. I praise God for *not* treating me as I deserve!
Finally, if you would, indulge me – please read John 17:20-26. There, Jesus prayed on our behalf. I find it compelling.
Thanks Nate.. I’m glad for your respectful insult. ;b Believe me, I’m not offended, but I would rather hear your point of view instead of just calling me dumb.
I’m quite used to it though, so I really don’t mind.
@ Mark, did I make sense? I wasn’t asking you to believe, but you can see that I really do base my beliefs on real principles, right? Did my “argument” have any intelligent thought?
Staci,
If I may . . .
I imagine that the thoughts expressed in your comment have come to mean a great deal to you. I remember several times, from my own evangelical Christian days, when someone would share an anecdote with me that solidified for me everything I had so wanted to believe but couldn’t for lack of a coherent explanation. Various books my Max Lucado or John MacArthur or John Piper affected me in similar ways.
But, as is usually the case, all attempts to offer a rational explanation for something that is so clearly subjective fall short.
In your story, all these things that seem to make sense, that seem to come about from clear thought, such as the Spirit filter or the God who has everything under his/her/its command, become vehicles by which one ultimately comes to ascertain “The Truth.” And it’s here where things get muddy. For what is this truth? It’s what people tell you it is. Or what you yourself “reason” it to be. And if two people can use their Spirit filters and come up with two conflicting truths, then neither contains any truth at all. At which point it becomes yet another point upon which we can become stuck and find ways to keep each other at a distance.
We are fascinating creatures, able to call just about anything Truth, when all it really boils down to is a difference of opinion, at best, or a means of manipulation at worse.
But the really cool thing is that I can allow you your Truths. I can choose to give you the freedom to believe whatever you desire. I can be your neighbor. We can break bread together or chat each other up over a fence line, and at the end of the day I can call you friend. But for those who claim to have The Truth, when that truth conflicts with what I hold dear, then we are required to part ways. For how can light dwell with darkness?
The Truth is more often than not exactly that sort of stumbling block. And not always on purpose. And not always in a way that is realized or even understood.
Does that make sense?
What you’ve done is taken the gospel message, the bare bones of the often conflicting yet purpose-driven narratives found in the Bible, and made it appealing to those who would offer a scientific rationale for not embracing the message of the gospel writers. Find someone willing to listen, to offer a resounding “Yes!” to enough questions that sound like reasonable and logical statement, and the conclusion is another soul bound for the kingdom. Another willing to put on the Spirit filter (blinders?) and embrace what others tell them is Truth.
I’m starting to sound intolerant. Arrogant. For that, I apologize. It’s just that I’ve been around this sort of thing my whole life. I’ve seen behind the curtain. And once that happens, it all just seems so small compared to enormous responsibility that comes with loving and caring for others in ways that matter . . .